itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics


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Offline SadisticMystic

itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« on: November 20, 2005, 06:47:00 PM »
Last night, I told Zizou how fast Mike's entry in the marathon was, now that the deadline for entries had passed.  He said he'd verify that after sleeping, and he did...but came back to me ready to fight.

(14:26:05) cman110690: So where is the real video?
(14:26:16) cman110690: That recording is full of cheats
(14:26:22) SadisticMystic1: such as?
(14:26:53) cman110690: His joypad has a feature called auto fire
(14:27:25) cman110690: In all competitions for basically all games autofire is called as a cheat
(14:27:38) SadisticMystic1: Two things: 1) what good does autofire do in Sonic 2, and 2) where are you getting the idea that autofire is used?
(14:27:39) cman110690: as it gives an unfair advantage to the player who has them,
(14:27:54) cman110690: All of his spindashes use autofire
(14:28:12) cman110690: Thats how his spin dashes were so fast compared to everyone else
(14:28:33) cman110690: On hill top theres more than an obvious proof of that
(14:28:49) cman110690: A human couldnt tap something that fast, only a machine coud
(14:28:51) cman110690: could*
(14:28:55) SadisticMystic1: Based on an audio spectrum of the run, the revs for spindashes were NOT evenly spaced, and come at an average rate of 13 per second
(14:29:13) SadisticMystic1: That's certainly possible, especially if you alternate using the A, S, and D keys
(14:29:28) cman110690: No it is not.
(14:29:37) cman110690: Another evidence to that is
(14:30:09) cman110690: That his recording (the file) is alot bigger in file size then the majority, yet it is shorter in game play
(14:30:09) Offering to send SM Quasar 150%.wmv to cman110690
(14:30:31) SadisticMystic1: because his recording was made before the new rule
(14:30:54) cman110690: No thats not it, the time of his recording is shorter
(14:30:59) cman110690: but his file size is bigger
(14:31:10) cman110690: There are 2 possible causes for that
(14:31:17) SadisticMystic1: a .gir, if not conducted from the beginning, consists of a single savestate of the position the movie was like, followed by the buttons
(14:31:22) cman110690: 1 of em is the obvious auto fire
(14:31:31) SadisticMystic1: Mike's was the only entry that included that savestate, which pads the file size
(14:31:45) cman110690: 2nd a possible 3rd party program that slows down the game
(14:31:48) SadisticMystic1: Autofire does not change the number of bytes it takes to represent a given amount of gameplay time
(14:31:53) SadisticMystic1: neither does slowdown
(14:32:10) cman110690: The .gir records each button that is pressed
(14:32:24) cman110690: it will record the extremely fast computer sutomatically repetitive autofire
(14:32:30) SadisticMystic1: But it only checks the input 60 times each second.
(14:32:51) SadisticMystic1: If a button is pressed at that 1/60 second interval, it records a 1.  Otherwise it records 0.
(14:32:57) cman110690: Anyways for the 3rd party program
(14:33:36) cman110690: We figured that it might have been a program that slows down the game at -50% rate
(14:33:45) cman110690: 1kb = 4 minutes
(14:34:20) cman110690: 14x4 = 56
(14:34:22) SadisticMystic1: no, 1kb = 5.55 seconds
(14:34:30) cman110690: Lets take another community
(14:34:41) cman110690: 9kb
(14:34:46) cman110690: was the file size
(14:34:56) cman110690: 9x4 = 36
(14:35:07) cman110690: And it was their exact length of recording
(14:35:09) SadisticMystic1: 9KB also doesn't include the savestate that was shortly after the beginning.
(14:35:30) cman110690: so I wouldnt see why the TSC video would be the only one that is different like that
(14:35:33) SadisticMystic1: .giz files are COMPRESSED and can vary in length over time.
(14:35:59) cman110690: I dont see why the TSC video would be th ONLY one
(14:36:03) SadisticMystic1: The uncompressed .gir files always use exactly 180 bytes per second, but that rate does not follow a strict factor on .giz
(14:36:07) cman110690: with the problems
(14:36:07) SadisticMystic1: I doo see why
(14:36:22) cman110690: Anyways
(14:36:57) SadisticMystic1: it's because Mike selected recording shortly after the start, and thus had that savestate in the beginning as a reference point, which pads on a bunch of bytes to the file size
(14:37:01) cman110690: I have complete proof on the autofire, but I am still suspicious on the file size
(14:37:11) SadisticMystic1: "complete proof"?
(14:37:14) cman110690: yep
(14:37:26) cman110690: lol Take a look at Hill Top and Oil Ocean
(14:37:38) cman110690: They are glitches only possible to do with AutoFire
(14:38:07) SadisticMystic1: Autofire is not needed for that
(14:38:17) cman110690: and that thing on the ocean could be considered a cheat aswell since it led to it
(14:38:31) SadisticMystic1: How is it a cheat?
(14:38:37) SadisticMystic1: Is there a code that you have to enter to do it?
(14:38:43) cman110690: Lol common take a look at it
(14:38:52) cman110690: hold on let me show u something
(14:39:29) cman110690: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cheating
(14:39:41) cman110690: I really gota so brb we can discuss on the matter when im  back
(14:40:05) SadisticMystic1: There is no trickery or fraud
(14:40:25) SadisticMystic1: Anything you see there can be performed normally
(14:40:39) cman110690: Not the autofire
(14:40:46) SadisticMystic1: There is no autofire
(14:40:49) cman110690: Lol
(14:40:53) cman110690: yes there is
(14:41:00) SadisticMystic1: http://koti.mbnet.fi/blackpaw/Stuff/quasar.wmv
(14:41:12) cman110690: Take a look at hill top and tell how that is not autofire
(14:41:24) SadisticMystic1: That shows how 15.5 taps per second is possible over a much longer duration that a single spindash a t a time
(14:41:26) cman110690: if you guys really wanted to win, you should have played fair.
(14:42:29) cman110690: Heres what Im proposing
(14:42:51) cman110690: I know hes good as I can just tell by how he was playing
(14:43:07) cman110690: Tell him to play it on the keyboard without autofire
(14:43:16) SadisticMystic1: That's exactly what he did.
(14:43:25) cman110690: lol
(14:43:30) cman110690: You are making me laugh
(14:43:50) cman110690: The keyboard has a function to make u stop tapping so rapidly in such a short amount of time
(14:44:19) SadisticMystic1: The keyboard can handle much more than 13 button presses in a second.
(14:44:34) cman110690: uh no
(14:45:01) SadisticMystic1: From what I've seen on WhatPulse, keyboards lock at 22 keys per second.
(14:45:18) SadisticMystic1: There's still a long way to go before hitting that.
(14:45:38) cman110690: lol
(14:45:45) cman110690: nice try
(14:45:47) cman110690: ha
(14:46:14) SadisticMystic1: I'm going to tap the A, S, and D keys as fast as I can for one second after typing this.
(14:46:15) SadisticMystic1: asdasdasdsadsaddasdas
(14:46:23) SadisticMystic1: 21
(14:46:26) cman110690: lol
(14:46:33) cman110690: u are hillarious
(14:46:58) SadisticMystic1: 13 a second, unevenly spaced out, is completely feasible.
(14:47:01) cman110690: Ive tried it arious times
(14:47:17) cman110690: and the spin dash breaks if you switch keys
(14:47:29) SadisticMystic1: It only breaks if you release Down.
(14:47:37) cman110690: which wasnt done
(14:47:42) SadisticMystic1: If you press A, S, D, A, S, D, you get 6 revs.
(14:48:05) cman110690: I can I'll retake a look at it
(14:49:24) SadisticMystic1: Obviously, you can achieve a higher maximum rate of tapping when you use three fingers on three keys instead of relying on only one key.
(14:53:09) cman110690: I'll contact some guys at GodWeapon, they've been doing online competitions longer then I have
(14:53:16) cman110690: They'll be able to tell
(15:13:26) cman110690: ok
(15:13:36) cman110690: He says it's auto fire
(15:13:52) SadisticMystic1: http://www.gdward.plus.com/input.txt
(15:14:04) cman110690: But I guess I can let it go...
(15:14:20) SadisticMystic1: That shows the frame counts at which every button in the run was pressed and/or held until
(15:14:21) cman110690: Dude Dreadknux is so disapointing u know why?
(15:14:31) SadisticMystic1: he got game over?
(15:14:39) cman110690: He never sent me his recording
(15:14:56) cman110690: On the news on his site he claims to have an excuse
(15:15:17) cman110690: I just wanna throw Sonic Olympics out of the window  right now
(15:16:16) cman110690: Is Sprint still alive?
(15:16:25) cman110690: I gotta send him the Master Systems
(15:16:34) SadisticMystic1: Sprint is on
(15:16:53) cman110690: k tell him I'll e-mail him the Master System recordings I got ok?
(15:18:45) SadisticMystic1: The list of button presses is now in a more readable form
(15:19:17) SadisticMystic1: still at http://www.gdward.plus.com/input.txt
(15:19:25) SadisticMystic1: where in that is autofire used?
(15:19:59) cman110690: Dude no.
(15:20:06) cman110690: Anyways I said I'll accept it
(15:20:28) cman110690: Its partially my fault, didnt think I'd have to be so picky on rules

Later...

(15:33:37) SadisticMystic1: Did you get the Quasar video?
(15:33:54) cman110690: nop the transfer failed
(15:33:59) SadisticMystic1: http://koti.mbnet.fi/blackpaw/Stuff/quasar.wmv
(15:34:01) cman110690: im on my laptop right now
(15:34:06) cman110690: at the air port
(15:35:16) cman110690: lol
(15:35:20) cman110690: that guy is goo
(15:35:23) cman110690: good*
(15:35:30) cman110690: still isnt any proof
(15:35:37) cman110690: but dont worry ur vid still passes
(15:46:26) cman110690: Hey
(15:46:46) cman110690: I just got contact from one of the authors of gens+
(15:47:10) cman110690: And they say that gens+ dosent compress recordings
(15:47:29) SadisticMystic1: It does if you tell it to
(15:47:39) SadisticMystic1: or if that option is enabled by default
(15:47:48) cman110690: Where can u tell it too?
(15:47:56) cman110690: And it wasnt suppose to be done either
(15:48:02) SadisticMystic1: a GIZ file is "Gens Input, ZIPPED"
(15:48:11) cman110690: no it is not
(15:48:27) SadisticMystic1: using gunzip on it, you get an uncompressed .gir file, for "Gens Input Recording"
(15:48:51) cman110690: Thats bull shit
(15:48:56) cman110690: even if it is
(15:49:03) SadisticMystic1: If you right-click a .giz file, is one of the options you get called "Extract Here"?
(15:49:07) cman110690: why would a .gir recording be lighter then a .giz
(15:49:11) SadisticMystic1: It isn't
(15:49:12) cman110690: IF IT IS ZIPPED
(15:49:16) cman110690: yes it is
(15:49:17) SadisticMystic1: GIR files are 400KB
(15:49:26) SadisticMystic1: for Mike's run, anyway
(15:49:31) cman110690: I have a .gir recording right by me
(15:49:37) cman110690: and its 9k
(15:49:45) cman110690: you .giz and its 14k
(15:49:50) SadisticMystic1: Right-click it
(15:49:54) cman110690: yep
(15:50:00) cman110690: Properties
(15:50:02) SadisticMystic1: Is one of the options called "Extract Here"?
(15:50:27) cman110690: Size 9.58(9,810bytes) for the .gir
(15:50:35) SadisticMystic1: The file is called "something.gir", but it's really a zipped file
(15:50:48) SadisticMystic1: which would normally get a giz extension, but it's not necessary
(15:50:53) cman110690: u said giz was zipped
(15:51:10) cman110690: Thats bull shit
(15:51:24) SadisticMystic1: if you rename the .gir to .giz, it will still play
(15:51:27) cman110690: I sent him your recording thru e-mail and he says something was done to it
(15:51:45) SadisticMystic1: Do you know what a MIME type is?
(15:52:20) cman110690: Dosent need to be talked about
(15:52:40) cman110690: If you guys were so desperate into winning that it lead into a discussable cheating act
(15:53:27) cman110690: Then thats not cool
(15:53:47) cman110690: You guys thought I'd be some ignorant idiot who wouldn't have seen it gone by
(15:54:11) cman110690: Are trying to bring in some new fancy story now?
(15:54:16) SadisticMystic1: If you extract either file, the .gir or the .giz, you will get another file
(15:54:30) cman110690: They are not extractable
(15:54:37) SadisticMystic1: If you tell Gens+ to play back that file, you get ANOTHER VALID RECORDING THAT PLAYS IDENTICALLY!
(15:54:48) SadisticMystic1: then download from http://7-zip.org
(15:54:57) SadisticMystic1: That will allow you to extract any file
(15:55:15) SadisticMystic1: though only valid archives will produce meaningful results when extracted
(15:55:17) cman110690: Your theory is still bull shit
(15:56:21) cman110690: regardless the filesize
(15:56:31) cman110690: compressed .giz is still larger than the .gir
(15:56:42) cman110690: Your just bringing some new bull shit
(15:56:50) SadisticMystic1: The proper extension for the compressed file is .giz, and for an uncompressed file is .gir, but it will be accepted by Gens+ either way
(15:56:55) SadisticMystic1: see this?
(15:56:56) SadisticMystic1: http://geocities.com/sadisticmystic1/sa2/walks/ee2.txt
(15:57:05) SadisticMystic1: it's a .txt file, but it produces a picture!
(15:57:18) cman110690: You can do that with any file
(15:57:18) SadisticMystic1: the same case here with gir and giz
(15:57:51) cman110690: Your saying that since you can do that with any file, it excuses you from the act of cheating?
(15:57:53) SadisticMystic1: Both of those files are compressed, despite their differing extensions
(15:58:04) SadisticMystic1: There is no cheating
(15:58:07) cman110690: yes
(15:58:17) cman110690: Did I show u the definition of cheating yet?
(15:58:26) SadisticMystic1: No trickery, no fraud.
(15:58:38) cman110690: Autofire
(15:58:42) SadisticMystic1: Where?
(15:58:49) cman110690: In your recording
(15:58:53) cman110690: just look at it
(15:58:54) cman110690: lol
(15:59:01) cman110690: it is so obvious
(15:59:15) SadisticMystic1: I gave you the list that shows the time each button was pressed.
(15:59:17) cman110690: Im starting to think twice about letting this thing go by
(15:59:30) SadisticMystic1: Where are the signs of autofire to be found in that list?
(15:59:30) cman110690: reshow
(15:59:35) cman110690: reshow
(15:59:47) SadisticMystic1: http://www.gdward.plus.com/input.txt
(16:00:05) cman110690: lol
(16:00:09) cman110690: How did u get that?
(16:00:24) SadisticMystic1: Sprint wrote a utility that accepts .gir, .giz, or .gmv as input
update: no -- it only accepts gir files
(16:00:34) cman110690: lol
(16:00:34) SadisticMystic1: and it prints out a list of the time each button is pressed
(16:01:33) cman110690: Sounds like another corrupt TSC gadget to me
(16:01:43) cman110690: Is there a way I could have it?
(16:01:49) cman110690: So I could test it out on my own?
(16:02:20) cman110690: because what turbo does is press all of those buttons repetitevely
(16:03:16) SadisticMystic1: Turbo cannot yield a series of presses that have the various sets of timing you see throughout the run
(16:03:31) cman110690: If it leads you guys into creating all of

(16:12:11) cman110690: So anyways about this button thing
(16:12:59) SadisticMystic1: He might revise it once more, to include when buttons are released
(16:13:19) cman110690: some of the buttons are pressed at the exact same time according to this sheet
(16:13:32) SadisticMystic1: That's certainly possible.
(16:13:51) SadisticMystic1: Note that if you press B and C at the same time while charging a spindash, you only get credit for 1 rev...not 2.
(16:15:24) cman110690: How can he press so many different buttons that fast under 1 second? While controlling his charcter at sonic 2
(16:15:43) SadisticMystic1: At no time are more than 14 buttons pressed in one second
(16:16:08) SadisticMystic1: and that's when charging up a spindash, when the only control you're worried about is "make me take off as fast as possible"
(16:16:12) cman110690: there is a good dozen though
(16:16:58) cman110690: let me try something
(16:17:48) cman110690: Why is C pressed so much more than the others?
(16:17:59) SadisticMystic1: because that's his primary jump button
(16:18:36) cman110690: He cant use the 2 others
(16:18:42) cman110690: because it will make him jump low
(16:18:48) cman110690: making that they are set to auto fire
(16:18:56) cman110690: that solves my case
(16:19:39) SadisticMystic1: Autofire would cause buttons to repeat the same on-off cycle of fixed length as long as the buttons are being held down
(16:19:50) cman110690: exactly
(16:20:03) cman110690: thats why he never jumps with A or B
(16:20:05) SadisticMystic1: There are not fixed time-lengths between all the A and B hits in spindash revs
(16:20:13) cman110690: but always spindashes alot more with A and B
(16:20:32) SadisticMystic1: What do you expect, that a player uses three primary jump buttons scattered all over the place?
(16:20:59) cman110690: No, but why would he just use a and b to spindash really
(16:21:07) cman110690: and only jump with C
(16:21:14) cman110690: Why wouldnt he just use C
(16:21:20) SadisticMystic1: because you only really need one button to jump
(16:21:29) SadisticMystic1: when it comes time to cpindash, just mash all three
(16:21:59) SadisticMystic1: because you can gain something by using more buttons to get faster taps, but not by arbitrarily choosing different buttons for each jump
(16:22:04) cman110690: It dosent work that way, you the buttons are alternating, A then Bm count the time between each A press
(16:22:17) SadisticMystic1: Let's look at some of the long revving strings:
(16:22:51) SadisticMystic1: 2:24 - A is pressed 10 times, B 4, C 9
(16:23:28) SadisticMystic1: 8:04 - A 11 (including 2 A hits in a row), B 10, C 9
(16:23:38) cman110690: Hes holding the 2 autofires and throwing in a C when he dashes
(16:24:09) SadisticMystic1: 20:10 - A 8, B 6, C 8
(16:24:14) cman110690: lol
(16:24:20) cman110690: thats all I got for 2:24
(16:24:20) cman110690: 02:24:01 -Press Down
02:24:14 -Press A
02:24:16 -Press B
02:24:20 -Press C
02:24:27 -Press A
02:24:27 -Press B
02:24:31 -Press C
02:24:38 -Press A
02:24:43 -Press C
02:24:50 -Press A
02:24:54 -Press C

(16:24:38) SadisticMystic1: the string starting at 2:24, extending into 2:25
(16:24:44) SadisticMystic1: until something other than A, B, or C is pressed
(16:25:15) cman110690: counting the C's after the directional presses?
(16:25:45) SadisticMystic1: The 2:24 sequence counts from 2:24:14 to 2:26:10
(16:26:35) SadisticMystic1: the next buttons, at 2:42, are part of a different level
(16:26:44) cman110690: Yeah but there's jumps without a directional press, everyone knows you dont press right after a dash
(16:27:38) SadisticMystic1: where are you getting the dash -> Right?
(16:28:26) cman110690: there isnt one till 2:43:22
(16:28:47) cman110690: theree dosent have to be
(16:29:03) cman110690: you can jump after a dash without pressing a button
(16:29:20) cman110690: all the A's are 11-13/100th of a second part
(16:29:22) SadisticMystic1: 2:43 is going up the chute in Chemical Plant 2
(16:30:08) SadisticMystic1: in the 2:24 sequence, As are separated by: 13, 11, 12, 10, 12, 12, 11, 13, 22
(16:30:20) cman110690: ok
(16:30:26) SadisticMystic1: autofire would repeat after exactly the same number of frames every time
(16:30:33) SadisticMystic1: ideally 2
(16:30:36) cman110690: So why's he pressing all those buttons inside of a chute?
(16:30:40) cman110690: That fast?
(16:30:43) cman110690: THAT*
(16:31:26) cman110690: Autofires wouldn't repeat at the EXACT same seconds
(16:31:36) SadisticMystic1: They would.
(16:31:46) SadisticMystic1: Computers are a lot more precise than 1/60 of a second
(16:32:03) cman110690: no lol
(16:32:12) SadisticMystic1: If another program wanted to generate a button press after exactly a given number of frames, it would do so every time with no error
(16:32:14) cman110690: the cheap joypads fluctulate like that
(16:32:29) cman110690: they arent perfect or else they would cost alot more
(16:33:04) cman110690: your statements aren't true
(16:33:21) SadisticMystic1: The price it takes to get a given level of quality (precision in this case) has gone down over time.
(16:33:25) cman110690: its not a program man
(16:33:28) SadisticMystic1: It is.
(16:33:31) cman110690: its on his very own joypad
(16:34:27) SadisticMystic1: Even the cheapest of autofire controllers can, when called on to use that feature, generate button presses exactly 2 frames apart, every time.
(16:35:08) cman110690: If it is a program doing it, then you just told on yourselves
(16:35:22) SadisticMystic1: There is no program at work other than Gens+.
(16:36:21) cman110690: You we'rent the player were you?
(16:36:26) SadisticMystic1: no
(16:36:39) cman110690: Then how can you truthfully answer that?
(16:38:02) cman110690: going to your resources?
(16:38:11) SadisticMystic1: I'll let Mike give the same answer when he comes back
(16:38:29) cman110690: How would I know he aint lying?
(16:38:39) cman110690: So many people lie these days
(16:38:43) cman110690: even my grandpa
(16:39:01) SadisticMystic1: What kind of setup could be used to verify the claim?
(16:39:27) cman110690: I have no idea but I think he should be the one explaining his gameplay
(16:39:51) SadisticMystic1: I'm familiar with what's going on in the gameplay at least
(16:40:14) cman110690: It isnt really verifyable unfortunately
(16:41:14) SadisticMystic1: The 2:24 sequence serves as a strong case against autofire
(16:41:48) SadisticMystic1: The button that can't be autofired is pressed 9 times, while the ones you claim were autofired get the uneven results of 10 and 4 over the same period
(16:42:43) cman110690: it is not separated perfectly because u've said yourself that this is new software
(16:43:06) SadisticMystic1: I'd expect new software to do a job a lot better than old software
(16:43:19) cman110690: Could be Beta
(16:43:37) cman110690: Your software could be wrong
(16:43:48) cman110690: New isnt always better than old
(16:44:38) cman110690: I mean
(16:45:04) SadisticMystic1: If someone wanted an autofire program, it is trivial to build one with completely accurate results
(16:45:18) SadisticMystic1: especially since your margin of error is 0.01666 seconds
(16:45:18) cman110690: Not if its created by someone like sprintgod, who said his timer was perfect, which it is not
(16:45:20) cman110690: at all
(16:45:31) cman110690: It has the timers going all over the place
(16:45:43) SadisticMystic1: Howdo they go "all over the place"?
(16:47:28) cman110690: In the bugfix hack, the timers get distorted
(16:47:36) SadisticMystic1: where?
(16:47:37) cman110690: They started counting incorrectly
(16:47:43) SadisticMystic1: How are they counting?
(16:48:18) cman110690: 24 seconds looks like 40
(16:48:29) SadisticMystic1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal
(16:48:45) SadisticMystic1: It's counting under that system, not the decimal system
(16:49:14) SadisticMystic1: The timer displayed on the screen is in decimal because that's what the overwhelming majority of players will understand
(16:49:37) SadisticMystic1: also 40 would be 28
(16:49:42) cman110690: its also inaccurate
(16:49:57) SadisticMystic1: how?
(16:50:32) cman110690: its suppose to be compatible with the majority of the players
(16:50:43) SadisticMystic1: The Debug feature isn't.
(16:50:44) cman110690: not where they have to get TSC to figure it out
(16:51:07) SadisticMystic1: Debug is for programmers who know what the values of bytes are supposed to mean.
(16:51:28) SadisticMystic1: Not everyone is simply capable of comprehending that matter.
(16:51:29) cman110690: Why is anybody debugging?
(16:51:50) SadisticMystic1: It has nothing to do with the in-game "debug code"
(16:52:05) SadisticMystic1: just a method of tracking how certain variables change over time
(16:52:18) cman110690: never said that
(16:52:34) cman110690: talking about debugging the game
(16:53:05) cman110690: You could have changed any variables for your own personal gain too
(16:53:17) SadisticMystic1: It's being used because the game isn't displaying certain information, and yet we know of a way to extract that hidden information, and it can make a difference in ranking
(16:53:21) cman110690: like how anything under 20 is fine
(16:53:30) cman110690: but anything after that can fudge up
(16:53:30) SadisticMystic1: If variables were changed mid-game, the input recordings won't work.
(16:54:58) SadisticMystic1: The reason for that is that the timer fix might cause certain runs to receive a different time bonus, meaning the button presses designed for the next level might begin before they'll have any effect, causing the recording to desync
(16:55:02) cman110690: not talking about changing them mid-game, talking about changing them where it gives unfair advantages
(16:55:29) SadisticMystic1: It's the same fix provided for everyone.
(16:56:19) cman110690: but you know your way around it, where as other people do not
(16:56:58) SadisticMystic1: Someone else might not know how to complete Oil Ocean in under 1:00, or how to use the propellor cut in Wing Fortress.
(16:57:01) cman110690: that's how you've manipulated everything in the pastw eek
(16:57:07) SadisticMystic1: Does that mean no one else is allowed to use those either?
(16:57:15) cman110690: you made the rules to accustom to your preferences
(16:57:31) SadisticMystic1: The team that has the greatest knowledge of the subject matter will generally prevail.
(16:58:02) SadisticMystic1: All MS runs that were submitted for the Olympics will play correctly on the original ROM.
(16:58:17) cman110690: then this means you;d have an idea why you;d be DQed
(17:00:04) SadisticMystic1: Mike made a run using only the keyboard and Gens+, and nothing in that run can't be replicated with correct play on a console.
(17:00:54) cman110690: SEGA Genesis also released the SEGA 6 button joypad controller
(17:01:01) cman110690: With TURBO feature
(17:01:07) cman110690: aka AutoFire
(17:01:49) SadisticMystic1: Even back then, autofire would be a lot more accurate than the mashing of buttons that Mike used.
(17:02:07) SadisticMystic1: The differences between taps on autofire is a consistent 2, 2, 2...not 10, 12, 13...
(17:03:04) cman110690: The autofire is accurate, that software isn't
(17:03:15) cman110690: If the bigfix is still buggy
(17:03:25) cman110690: how can you be sure that this is accurate?
(17:04:16) SadisticMystic1: The bugfix is accurate for playing back runs that were also recorded on the bugfix.
(17:04:49) SadisticMystic1: Because the timer was FIXED, that ROM might display a proper 20.58 for a run whereas the original ROM would give 21.03.
(17:04:53) cman110690: You guys also had more than gens+ playing also. if you guys were dumping your inputs on a txt
(17:04:56) cman110690: on top of that
(17:05:04) cman110690: its a TXT file! It can be edited.
(17:05:08) SadisticMystic1: The input dump was created long after the run was finished
(17:05:32) cman110690: [16:01] sadisticmystic1: The bugfix is accurate for playing back runs that were also recorded on the bugfix.
[16:01] sadisticmystic1: Because the timer was FIXED, that ROM might display a proper 20.58 for a run whereas the original ROM would give 21.03.
(17:05:36) cman110690: hmmm
(17:05:42) cman110690: Im not so sure about that
(17:05:46) cman110690: reread it
(17:06:05) cman110690: If it was created after the run anyways
(17:06:10) cman110690: HOW could this be the dump!?
(17:06:21) SadisticMystic1: The .giz file was already finished.
(17:06:38) SadisticMystic1: The program takes an already-finished GIZ for input, and gives a TXT as output
(17:07:08) cman110690: but that was a 22-24 second finish
(17:07:13) cman110690: that desyncs it
(17:07:26) SadisticMystic1: What was 22-24?
(17:08:17) cman110690: If its giz and its bigger than the .gir then SOMETHING MUST have SLOWED down the recording. On how much time it took to record
(17:08:41) cman110690: the MS game btw
(17:08:51) SadisticMystic1: The reason Mike's file is bigger is because a few kilobytes were allocated to "this is where the run starts off from"
(17:08:54) cman110690: because in that time frame
(17:08:58) cman110690: the rom desyncs
(17:09:03) SadisticMystic1: The other runs start from power on, so they don't have that overhead
(17:09:31) cman110690: I've done some test "allocated" test
(17:09:34) SadisticMystic1: If you record something on the original ROM, and it's 21-24 seconds, it might not play back properly on the timer fix.
(17:09:43) cman110690: and Ive had the same results as the other recording
(17:09:54) cman110690: so this does not explain it
(17:09:55) cman110690: :P
(17:10:12) SadisticMystic1: If it's recorded on the original and under 20 or over 25, it will play properly on the timer fix.
(17:10:26) cman110690: there you go
(17:10:30) cman110690: its inaccurate
(17:10:32) SadisticMystic1: If you record it on the timer fix, it will play back on that same ROM just fine, no  matter what the finish time is.
(17:10:34) cman110690: you just admitted it
(17:10:45) cman110690: You must be quoting sprint
(17:11:14) SadisticMystic1: If you get something that's 22.13 on timer fix, and 22.33 on original, it still plays back just fine
(17:11:25) SadisticMystic1: It doesn't ALWAYS desync within that window
(17:11:46) SadisticMystic1: only when the discrepancy provided by the timer fix crosses a seconds barrier that changes the time bonus
(17:12:08) cman110690: You dont know this for yourself that the rom is perfectly accurate. You are taking that info from another person. right?
(17:12:22) SadisticMystic1: The ROM is accurate against itself.
(17:13:04) cman110690: That dosent mean there are other bugs, ones you may not have noticed
(17:13:12) SadisticMystic1: Based on the changes provided in the fix (which are the only changes made), it's possible to figure out the cause of errors between the two versions on your own.
(17:13:16) cman110690: I mean if it took him that long to find it
(17:13:47) SadisticMystic1: If there's another bug in the original, then it's there for everyone.
(17:13:48) cman110690: lord knows what else there could be
(17:14:05) SadisticMystic1: The only bug that the timer fix changes is the game's failure to reset subseconds to 0 after a level
(17:14:15) SadisticMystic1: Nothing else in the entire ROM was changed
(17:14:21) cman110690: not talking about the original one
(17:14:33) cman110690: and besides
(17:14:38) cman110690: you dont know that
(17:14:48) cman110690: that nothing was else was changes
(17:14:51) cman110690: changed*
(17:15:04) cman110690: There could be other cans of worms opened
(17:15:24) SadisticMystic1: There is a tool called "diff"
(17:15:41) SadisticMystic1: Given two files as input, it displays everything that's different between the two files
(17:15:58) SadisticMystic1: Nothing was changed between the two except this timer reset fix.
(17:16:50) cman110690: Dosent mean a chain reaction could have occured
(17:16:58) cman110690: changing the timer changes alot
(17:18:23) SadisticMystic1: All that was changed is that the game now starts every level with a timer of 0.00, instead of 0.12 or 0.54 like it might on the original
(17:18:32) SadisticMystic1: It does not affect the other mechanics of the game.
(17:19:02) cman110690: lol
(17:19:09) cman110690: You didnt make the now did you?
(17:19:13) cman110690: the hack*\
(17:19:28) SadisticMystic1: No, but I've seen the output of diff for those two files.
(17:21:52) cman110690: ?
(17:21:59) cman110690: Dude
(17:22:05) cman110690: You dont really know then
(17:22:12) cman110690: You havent seen all the changes
(17:22:18) SadisticMystic1: Yes, I have.
(17:22:35) SadisticMystic1: "diff file1 file2" gives all of the changes between file1 and file2.
(17:23:23) cman110690: So.
(17:23:29) cman110690: Dosent mean he showed you everything
(17:23:45) cman110690: he may have made some last minute edits
(17:23:58) SadisticMystic1: If he did, then those edits would have shown up in diff.
(17:24:33) cman110690: Not if he didnt show it to you
(17:24:51) SadisticMystic1: I downloaded it from his site.
(17:24:59) SadisticMystic1: I have access to all the changes that were made.
(17:26:34) cman110690: just because the timer was the only changed variable dosent mean that could not have a domino effect
(17:27:04) SadisticMystic1: What could be changed simply because the timer starts at 0.00 all the time instead of 0.12 or 0.54?
(17:28:02) SadisticMystic1: And how would it wreck compatibility for videos that were bother recorded and played back on the timer fix version?
(17:28:33) cman110690: Why is the timer starting late?
(17:29:09) SadisticMystic1: because the minutes and seconds are reset to 0 before each level, but on the original ROM, subseconds weren't
(17:29:13) cman110690: and it does wreck compatibility, you already said that
(17:29:19) SadisticMystic1: so that variable picks up wherever it left off
(17:29:49) SadisticMystic1: It makes for potential desyncs for videos recorded on original and played back on timer fix.
(17:29:54) SadisticMystic1: That isn't disputed.
(17:30:06) SadisticMystic1: But what about videos both recorded and played back on timer fix?
(17:30:16) SadisticMystic1: There is no discrepancy with those at all
(17:30:48) cman110690: seems like you just tried toput a band-aid on it and not reall yFIX it
(17:31:08) cman110690: yes but u said the timer starts late anyways
(17:32:01) SadisticMystic1: Anything that changes what the timer might read, and thus might change time bonuses by crossing a seconds barrier, CANNOT be fully compatible with runs recorded on the original
(17:32:41) cman110690: Not everyone has you "bugfixed" game
(17:32:59) SadisticMystic1: That's why the runs can be played back using the original.
(17:33:44) cman110690: Then why do u call  it a bug fix?
(17:34:19) SadisticMystic1: Because, if everyone uses it as the default, it is more accurate.
(17:34:35) cman110690: All i seem to be hearing
(17:34:41) cman110690: is excuse after excuse
(17:34:41) SadisticMystic1: Runs done on original are played back on that, and runs done on timer fix (if any) can be played on that
(17:34:51) cman110690: hey
(17:34:53) cman110690: no
(17:34:57) cman110690: not perfectly accurate
(17:35:02) SadisticMystic1: A ROM that fixes the Sonic 1 "spike bug" will desync from its original when that bug comes into play
(17:35:08) SadisticMystic1: but it doesn't mean the ROM isn't a bugfix
(17:35:35) SadisticMystic1: Timer fix IS perfectly accurate when compared to itself.
(17:36:31) cman110690: lol
(17:36:38) cman110690: It just starts late
(17:36:43) cman110690: thats not really a fix
(17:36:53) SadisticMystic1: It starts at the same time
(17:37:13) SadisticMystic1: except the number is chooses to represent that time is always "0.00" instead of "0.23" or something
(17:37:56) cman110690: thats like setting back to the approriate time
(17:38:24) SadisticMystic1: No, because the game isn't jumping ahead or going backwards in time.
(17:38:52) SadisticMystic1: It's just setting a number to 0.
(17:39:05) cman110690: the number is changed nonetheless
(17:39:11) cman110690: making the time something it isnt
(17:40:18) cman110690: WHen the number represents time
(17:40:18) SadisticMystic1: If the previous level ended at 1:25.30, then the original ROM will start at 0:00.30 for the next level
(17:40:21) cman110690: you are changing time
(17:40:25) SadisticMystic1: Do you think it should stay 1:25.30?
(17:41:11) cman110690: you need to find a different, more advanced way to fix that then
(17:41:28) cman110690: not just changing one number
(17:41:44) SadisticMystic1: Anything that changes time has the possibility of changing time bonuses
(17:41:53) SadisticMystic1: making it incompatible with the original
(17:42:13) SadisticMystic1: No amount of fixing can change that
(17:43:01) cman110690: you dont know that
(17:43:09) SadisticMystic1: Yes, I do.
(17:43:09) cman110690: Im afraid we'll just jave too
(17:43:13) cman110690: Ok
(17:43:17) cman110690: How do u know that?
(17:43:51) cman110690: Sprint isnt the only programmer out there
(17:44:21) SadisticMystic1: Because time bonus takes longer to scroll through the bigger it is, and when the timer is reset from a number of frames that can be anywhere between 0 and 59, to 0, you can't make sure the time bonus will stay the sme
(17:45:54) cman110690: then find another way to edit it, because thats more not the proper way to do it
(17:46:10) cman110690: Theres more to programming than editing txt files
(17:46:24) SadisticMystic1: These aren't txt files being edited.
(17:46:35) SadisticMystic1: They're sms files, which are binaries.
(17:47:02) cman110690: which are edited in the proper program
(17:47:05) cman110690: Notepad
(17:47:19) SadisticMystic1: If you edit an SMS file in Notepad, you're a huge idiot.
(17:47:25) SadisticMystic1: You need a hex editor for those.
(17:47:43) cman110690: So you used a Hex editor?
(17:47:49) SadisticMystic1: Or a disassembler.
(17:48:31) cman110690: Your still using the same format by typing numbers into places
(17:48:59) cman110690: Apperently
(17:49:06) cman110690: According to what your telling me
(17:49:21) cman110690: You are very capable of editing the files.
(17:49:53) cman110690: You know exactly what to do
(17:50:41) SadisticMystic1: For well-documented file types.
(17:50:57) cman110690: A team whos depsperate into winning, knows what to do. Didnt do it?
(17:51:03) cman110690: no way jose
(17:51:34) cman110690: Thats why the file size is bigger
(17:51:40) cman110690: and you've decided
(17:51:50) cman110690: to use to "zipped" format of it
(17:51:52) SadisticMystic1: The file size is bigger because it has a savestate at the beginning.
(17:51:58) cman110690: so that the file can appear as small as possible
(17:52:53) cman110690: Hah
(17:53:01) SadisticMystic1: Send me the .gir that you claim isn't zipped, and I'll uncompress it and send you the full file that, if you'll plug it into Gens, will play the exact same movie.
(17:53:01) cman110690: Theres a save state for all of em
(17:53:12) cman110690: ok
(17:53:13) SadisticMystic1: Not the ones recorded from power-on
(17:54:41) cman110690: I have a proof for u little guy
(17:55:05) cman110690: its .giz
(17:55:18) cman110690: 40 minutes, 10 kilobytes
(17:55:25) cman110690: 4 to 1 ration
(17:55:27) cman110690 is offering to send file Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (39 minutes, 35 seconds).giz
(17:55:51) cman110690 canceled the transfer of Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (39 minutes, 35 seconds).giz
(17:55:55) SadisticMystic1: Not sending.  E-mail it to questiondesk@gmail.com
(17:56:05) SadisticMystic1: Linux GAIM doesn't like file transfers
(17:56:09) cman110690: ok
(17:57:42) cman110690: it is sent
(17:58:23) cman110690: brb gotta pee
(18:00:07) cman110690: back
(18:00:44) SadisticMystic1: It says archive type isn't supported
(18:00:56) SadisticMystic1: I need to find something that will extract it on Linux
(18:01:04) SadisticMystic1: MIME type reads x-gzip
(18:01:18) cman110690: U should windows on it taking a small partition
(18:01:27) SadisticMystic1: I have Windows on 120GB
(18:01:30) cman110690: like this u can alternate
(18:01:33) SadisticMystic1: Linux on 40GB
(18:01:36) cman110690: oh
(18:01:42) cman110690: switch OS rly fast
(18:01:57) SadisticMystic1: I'd rather look for a tool to extract it here
(18:02:03) cman110690: ok
(18:02:34) SadisticMystic1: so that when you send the GIR that you claim isn't zipped, I can extract and upload it fast enough that there isn't enough to for any nonsense
(18:02:58) cman110690: its .giz
(18:03:07) cman110690: under the same conditions as Mikes
(18:03:08) cman110690: but
(18:03:09) SadisticMystic1: right now you've sent the GIZ
(18:03:13) SadisticMystic1: which is compressed
(18:03:20) cman110690: it respects the 4 to 1 ratio
(18:03:21) SadisticMystic1: my contention is that the GIRs are compressed as well
(18:03:34) cman110690: Now they are compressed?
(18:03:49) cman110690: The recording is longer
(18:03:55) cman110690: has the same conditions
(18:04:00) cman110690: has a smaller file size
(18:04:24) SadisticMystic1: and doesn't have a savestate at the beginning to display initial conditions
(18:04:26) cman110690: Cant outsmart the facts
(18:04:31) SadisticMystic1: because it's recorded from power on
(18:04:37) cman110690: not it dosent
(18:05:02) SadisticMystic1: there, solved my problem
note: the "problem" was that in this case it was paying attention to the extension, and wouldn't let me extract a .giz but would after I renamed it to .gz

(18:05:16) cman110690: It starts just before the SEGA screen like Mike's
(18:05:42) SadisticMystic1: Mike's starts at the "Sonic and Miles 'Tails' Prower" screen
(18:05:47) cman110690: lol
(18:05:47) SadisticMystic1: which is after the SEGA screen
(18:05:53) cman110690: no it does not
(18:06:06) cman110690: and IF!
(18:06:11) cman110690: he did that
(18:06:14) SadisticMystic1: http://www.soniccenter.org/sm/files/Sonic%...%20seconds).gir
(18:06:18) cman110690: It is totally illegal
(18:06:22) SadisticMystic1: there's the uncompressed version, 556 K
(18:06:29) cman110690: because the rule of having the SEGA logo recorded
(18:06:30) SadisticMystic1: It was legal at the time he recorded it
(18:06:32) cman110690: was always the must
(18:06:43) SadisticMystic1: It was not the rule until Wednesday
(18:06:44) cman110690: I have Mike's recording
(18:07:01) cman110690: he started recording 1 second black before the SEGA logo screen
(18:07:14) cman110690: same condition as this one
(18:07:19) SadisticMystic1: 13623 bytes?
(18:07:37) cman110690: yes
(18:07:41) cman110690: Mike's
(18:07:53) cman110690: is
(18:08:35) SadisticMystic1: Now send the GIR file to me, same e-mail
(18:08:40) cman110690: oj
(18:08:41) cman110690: ok
(18:10:24) cman110690: sent
(18:11:15) SadisticMystic1: uploading
(18:11:43) SadisticMystic1: http://www.soniccenter.org/sm/files/Sonic%...202marathon.gir
(18:11:55) SadisticMystic1: that's a 402KB uncompressed version
(18:12:00) cman110690: yep
(18:12:10) cman110690: and?
(18:12:13) SadisticMystic1: and it'll play the game in the same way as the 9K version from which it was extracted
(18:12:20) cman110690: yep
(18:12:33) cman110690: Which dosent really lead anywhere to your defence
(18:12:53) SadisticMystic1: It does, in that the .gir files you received are compressed, just like the .giz
(18:13:04) cman110690: yep
(18:13:10) cman110690: Which are like the same right?
(18:13:31) cman110690: But unlike the .giz we sent you
(18:13:52) cman110690: Mike's unknownfully bigger. I mean you guys know. But we dont.
(18:14:08) SadisticMystic1: Who was this "designer" of Gens+ that you talked to?
(18:15:03) cman110690: Stephen Cardoso
(18:15:36) cman110690: The more this goes on
(18:15:42) cman110690: The more it seems you guys lie
(18:15:53) cman110690: now ur saying .gir is compressed and not .giz
(18:16:00) SadisticMystic1: Google for the phrase "stephen cardoso" gens
(18:16:01) cman110690: They are both compressed qually
(18:16:05) SadisticMystic1: How many results do you get?
(18:16:12) cman110690: equally*
(18:16:14) SadisticMystic1: All compression is not equal.
(18:16:19) cman110690: hey
(18:16:33) cman110690: Then why does Mike's reocrding not fit the 4 to 1 ration?
(18:16:37) cman110690: ratio*
(18:16:41) cman110690: and the other .giz
(18:16:46) SadisticMystic1: Because it has overhead provided by the savestate.
(18:16:47) cman110690: under the same conditions
(18:16:52) cman110690: DOES
(18:16:59) cman110690: No it dosent
(18:16:59) SadisticMystic1: .giz and .gir differ only in name
(18:17:05) cman110690: Hey
(18:17:08) cman110690: I send u a .giz
(18:17:11) cman110690: same conditions
(18:17:15) cman110690: with a save state
(18:17:27) cman110690: the recording is longer
(18:17:31) SadisticMystic1: giz does not necessarily mean "has a savestate at the beginning".
(18:17:32) cman110690: shorter in file size
(18:17:38) cman110690: meets the 4 to 1 ratio
(18:18:04) cman110690: Mike's dosent
(18:18:12) cman110690: Im afraid I'll have to call this a cheat.
(18:18:24) cman110690: Your defence is repeatidly failing.
(18:18:44) cman110690: repeatitive*
(18:20:52) SadisticMystic1: Mike's run, the one that's 13623 bytes, starts from the Sonic and Miles "Tails" Prower screen
(18:20:55) SadisticMystic1: Boot it up and check.
(18:20:59) cman110690: ok
(18:21:02) cman110690: i'll do so
(18:21:52) cman110690: np ur wrong
(18:21:55) cman110690: nop*
update: yes, I was wrong here...I was basing it on the start time of the AVI file I generated from the recording
(18:22:08) cman110690: It start 1 second before SEGA Logo appears
(18:23:00) cman110690: and besides
(18:23:08) cman110690: it was always required to have the SEGA Logo screen
(18:23:13) cman110690: which he did have
(18:23:19) cman110690: unless ur trying to prove him wrong
(18:23:24) SadisticMystic1: Not until Wednesday.
(18:23:28) cman110690: no
(18:23:30) cman110690: it always has
(18:23:39) cman110690: Rolken even wrote it
(18:24:10) SadisticMystic1: http://scd.sclassic.net/so/
(18:24:24) SadisticMystic1: See that heading clearly labeled NEW Sonic 2 Marathon Rule?
(18:24:35) SadisticMystic1: Notice how it wasn't posted until the 16th?
(18:24:56) cman110690: That was only for the rule OPEN and Record
(18:24:59) cman110690: not sega logo screen
(18:25:12) cman110690: but anyways he did do it corretly
(18:25:17) cman110690: correctly*
(18:25:41) SadisticMystic1: And Stephen Cardoso is not a Gens developer.
(18:26:02) cman110690: Yes
(18:26:23) cman110690: I emailed the email Rodrigo Cardoso.
(18:26:30) cman110690: In response I got his brother
(18:26:36) cman110690: thru e-mail
(18:27:08) SadisticMystic1: What did he say about the file structure of a Gens input recording?
(18:27:35) cman110690: That it mainly has to do a 4 to 1 ratio
(18:27:57) cman110690: Normally a Gens+ saved recording will have a 1kb per 4minute ratio
(18:28:01) cman110690: of a recording
(18:28:21) SadisticMystic1: Anything else he said?
(18:28:42) cman110690: No I only asked him that one question
(18:30:14) SadisticMystic1: That's a statement on the quality of gzip compression, not of Gens recording file structure.
(18:30:42) cman110690: No, sounds like a file structure to me
(18:32:05) cman110690: I really gotta go now
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 10:42:03 PM by SadisticMystic »

Offline Tails47 2

itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2005, 07:17:01 PM »
You talked with that idiot for 4 hours??? That is just silly

Just cause mike had an awesome run doesn't mean cheating.
Just cause they know that they are gonna lose doesn't mean cheating.

You gave 4 hours proof that we didn't cheat, and still he chooses to think that we cheat!

That guy is super dumb!

Offline sonicam

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itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2005, 07:26:58 PM »
Wow, I thought I was a sore loser, this guy makes me look like I enjoy losing. D:
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Offline magnum12

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itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2005, 09:16:22 PM »
I'm no computer wizard, but all those presses in that amount of time is easily possible. I can easily get about 9-10 presses per second using a key drumming technique in rapid 3 press bursts. What cman doesn't know is that SM is a computer expert and a master at detecting cheaters, so he should know if someone is cheating or not.
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Offline Rolken

itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2005, 02:06:33 AM »
I actually read through that tome now. It's kinda lame how most of the chat is really just Zizou not understanding computer internals and SM having to explain to him things like: no the timer's not buggy, it uses this counting system called "hex".
« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 02:07:00 AM by Rolken »
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Offline Spinballwizard

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itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2005, 10:33:52 AM »
I mean seriously, who doesn't know about hex?

It's a good thing SM knows so much.
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Offline CosmicFalcon

itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2005, 05:58:53 PM »
LOL
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Offline Cybrax

itt an epic fight over the fate of the Olympics
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2006, 03:54:18 PM »
omg tell him to play hill top zone it automatically like flings you across the gap when you attempt to spindash and it flips me out its a fucked up glitch in the game.

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