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1
Competition Central / Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Last post by Zurggriff on June 22, 2018, 01:49:48 PM »
Nuking the ring charts is overkill. The argument is most submissions do not have proof that no rings were duplicated. However, this argument could also be applied to all records on the site that do not have a video, or any stat on the site for that matter, as there is no way to prove that no rules violation occurred for those submissions.

I think revising the rules to prohibit duplicating rings would be the best option. Record stats already require video proof and if it is of sufficient quality, spotting ring duplication should not be a problem. If we feel that people are too likely to duplicate rings without noticing it, then require video proof for all ring and score submissions. If any stats appear to be impossible without duplicating rings, then proof call those submissions.
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Competition Central / Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Last post by hfactor66 on June 22, 2018, 11:45:44 AM »
Thing is, you're probably not the only one.

With as little communication with players as there is today, there may be no other choices but to either allow the shenanigans or nuke the sonic rings charts for S1 2013.

As for stats you feel are in violation, you can just submit 1 ring until you can replace it with a non-violating stat.
I can't imagine I'm the only one who has had this happen.

And yes, I've done that 1 ring resubmission before with an S3&K stat when I submitted a stat to the wrong level. If I were gonna replace it with anything it would just be a 113 run. I submitted the 116 run before I found out about what I showcase in the video, because it didn't seem to violate any rules. You could argue it still doesn't, but with that video in mind, is it really fair to let that slide? I just feel unless something changes to validate or invalidate the run, it shouldn't be up the same way I didn't submit the S+T 235 run.

Man, what have I started with this thread? I can honestly say I didn't think this is where it would end up, with the thought of nuking an entire chart coming up.
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Competition Central / Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Last post by SpinDashMaster on June 22, 2018, 09:01:31 AM »
Thing is, you're probably not the only one.

With as little communication with players as there is today, there may be no other choices but to either allow the shenanigans or nuke the sonic rings charts for S1 2013.

As for stats you feel are in violation, you can just submit 1 ring until you can replace it with a non-violating stat.
4
Competition Central / Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Last post by hfactor66 on June 22, 2018, 06:17:18 AM »
Uh, I think I just discovered something that will completely turn the tables on this entire discussion...



The dupe ring bug occurred WHEN THEY WEREN'T IN FLIGHT.

THIS.
CHANGES.
EVERYTHING.


This needed to be brought to light. I discovered this while playing this level one night and noticed one time after falling at the beginning that I had 5 more rings than I should have had, meaning I duped some rings without even flying as Sonic & Tails, so I recreated it as such for this video to demonstrate that flying as S+T is now not the only known circumstance in which duping rings is possible.

Given this information, this changes my view on allowing Tails as an AI partner for RA, since this duping bug seems to occur in more ways than one. This makes verifying a record in the future much more difficult in this category without video proof to ensure that no rings were duped. I see this going one of three ways.

1. All S+T RA records requiring full gameplay video proof, and ensuring that no rings were duped on a case by case basis, which I don't see happening, but it is one way to go about it in the future, ensuring that the player is aware that if any ring they collect is counted twice, their stat is void. (If some other lost soul decides to pick this up in the future anyway, lol)

2. Ban the use of Tails as Sonic altogether, and only allow Sonic alone to prevent duping rings from ever needing to be brought up again. This seems like the most likely option, since it eliminates the problem altogether, and makes for a lot less hassle. As much as I want to delve into exploring some of these levels with S+T in this game, the fact remains that if this bug can be triggered even without them flying together, then it is reasonable to assume that something this easily exploitable should be banned, since it can be done even unintentionally.

3. This is just an idea I've had for a while now, but it's similar to the Sonic Adventure games' rules that apply to Knuckles and Rouge's treasure hunt missions, which go like this;

Sonic Adventure: Rings you dig up and collect as Knuckles don't count.
Sonic Adventure 2: Any rings dug up and collected as Knuckles or Rouge, or thrown by enemies, don't count toward your total.

I don't see why we couldn't have a similar rule for this situation, like perhaps subtract 1 ring from your total for every duplicate ring you collect. I don't see that as an unreasonable proposal, since SA2's rule flat out says this in parenthesis. "If you can keep track of how many rings were obtained that way, you can subtract them from the final displayed total." If keeping track of rings that shouldn't count in SA2 and subtracting them is perfectly acceptable, then why not in this case too?

That's my proposal, I'd like to see your guys' perspective on this. If S+T does end up getting banned completely, then my 116 rings on Marble 3 with S+T should be revoked. Hell, I think it should get revoked anyway until an official ruling on this is decided, it doesn't seem very fair to submit a new record that could be in violation of a potential rule change due to a new discovery.
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Competition Central / Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Last post by SpinDashMaster on June 21, 2018, 06:55:05 PM »
There's nothing to ban in mania, which it why it doesn't have its own page. Explicitly stating that S+T control is legal is important, however, considering what I said earlier: that controlling S+T in basically all other games is banned.

As for S1 2013, I think the rule could simply be revised as you both have mentioned: "Collecting a ring while flying as Sonic and Tails together voids your stat."

I'd fix this myself but 2012 was a thing.
6
Board Games / Re: Word game
« Last post by Dekuboy on June 21, 2018, 12:36:09 AM »
Yes! Thank you so much for being a thread necromancer, SpanielWare!
My word is

yogibogeybox
7
Beef / Re: i cheated.
« Last post by SpanielWare on June 19, 2018, 06:55:33 AM »
Thank you for confessing and apologizing xXMegaManXx; I for one appreciate the honesty, and I admire you for leaving your cheating days in the dust lol and vowing to compete sincerely from here on out.

As SDM said unfortunately you won't be allowed to compete on the charts anymore, though honestly TSC's pretty dead these days anyway and the Sonic speedrunning community's much more active elsewhere (and if you want IL charts there are other popular sites like CyberScore); nothing to stop you speedrunning Sonic!

If you can establish a good reputation as an honest competitor/runner elsewhere, your submission privileges may be reinstated here in the future, though that's for the admins to decide at the time.
8
Competition Central / Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Last post by SpanielWare on June 19, 2018, 06:50:18 AM »
Just chiming into this dead site :P to say, concurring SDM, I think it's pretty sensible to allow cleverly manipulating Tails' AI (so long as gameplay's kept 1P), in keeping with the classics like the strat Zeupar pointed out, and the rules should be revised to explicitly clarify this.

One could argue both ways for allowing S+T flight in S1 2013 so long as double ring credits aren't earned, vs. banning it outright; personally I think the former, à la CyberScore's ruling, is best and the lesser of two evils. I feel players have a responsibility to ensure they don’t earn double ring credits with S+T flight, and if it's too difficult to manually track they should record their runs, which I don't think is much to ask for this in this day and age to be honest; I also feel, like hfactor66, players shouldn't be penalized for accidentally grabbing onto Tails where it doesn't otherwise affect the run (which can unnecessarily complicate some strats).

Ultimately more active runners of the affected games need to discuss both of these rulings (on TSSC or wherever convenient) and come to a consensus; it's good of you to check and raise the discussion hfactor66.

On a side note, the "difficult to verify without video proof" argument could be extended to numerous legal tricks and at the end of the day, you have to operate on a merit and trust system in cases where video proof isn't mandatory (but yeah, it is here universally for 1st place stats anyway, at least).

Finally I also feel it's a given S+T flying in Mania should be legal as there's no reason it shouldn't be (we still need official rules for Mania derp).
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Board Games / Re: Word game
« Last post by SpanielWare on June 18, 2018, 02:35:33 PM »
A recent board games thread :o who knows if anyone will reply after me but...

obeliscolychny
10
Competition Central / Re: The Random .giz Topic
« Last post by SpinDashMaster on June 17, 2018, 10:19:09 PM »
:36 MG2 Tails.
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